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The Witches' Symposium 04： Androgyny in the Ancient World

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Hello beautiful people and welcome to drawing down the stars for our witch's Symposium today I have my co-hosts retch and Dion you guys want to say hi hello and we're joined as always by our special guest Ammon from ladybabylon how are you doing Ammon I'm doing great hail Satan yes hail Satan everyone

Today we're going to be doing a deep dive into sort of like these uh kind of non-binary gender identities and kind of gender transitioning in the ancient worlds and all of these different kind of um we want to really look at this concept of gender and how people uh how it relates to sex and how people are kind of moving through it and kind of just have a general conversation so to begin with I wanted to when we were doing our occult explorers episode earlier today we were looking at the earliest reference to sort of gender

Transition and Dion was able to find this do you want to talk about the myth that you found Dion yeah um it's about Ishtar and this is in cuneiform and basically Ishtar is kidnapped into the underworld and it says that no male or female can cross the seven Gates to go into the underworld to rescue her so the Creator God creates a hermaphrodite being a shoe namir um that's able to get through the seventh gate and charm the demon the it's a a female demon that is kidnapped

Ishtar and put her to sleep and he seduces her and steals the Water of Life and sprinkles Ishtar with the Water of Life and they're uh able she's able to resurrect but because of that the demon goddess curses the hermorphidite being and all its kind and so because of that Ishtar uh does a blessing or a boon you could say uh to remove part of the curse and saying that she will have priestesses that are trans priestesses basically male priestesses male prostitutes dedicated to the goddess and they're made from the stars the elements

Of the Stars yeah it says they have the elements of the stars and they can do divination they can see into the future that's the gift but they're also cursed to be exiled from their homes and such if you don't hear the mithras Liturgy in that and all all of the elements of the mithras Liturgy that's all okay so Ammon talk to us about this mythless liturgy because those who follow your channel know you've been referencing a bunch and it's like it's in the PGM what is it

Really about what's going on with that yeah it's an initiation it's liturgical directions right for an initiation including a nice beautiful drug recipe oh God it's so gorgeous um and we also have the phrases for the places that the initiate enters into right in a very very

Um regimented system of preparation for the per the initiate so yeah we've got a period of days that they have to do it what they have to do every day they derive this drug from it involves some kind of Botanical poison with the scarab beetle right and uh it transformation of that over time into a communion that they take included other things like The Acacia you know the acacia was going to be there but we also have Viper Venom wow it's a fantastic surprise surprise yeah so

Um we get to that place where we're actually guided it's a map it's essentially what is the mithric Liturgy I'll just answer this and stop the threat liturgy or the mithras Liturgy as they like to call it is a map for taking

A inter-dimensional trip it's a way of entering into death and coming back and when you come back you are as they say in the text born again you have the Water of Life right so this is a hunt this is you know first century BC so we're setting up the stage for Gangster G you know what I mean so um yeah Gorgeous I'll stop but that's I love that um the narration stuff love that what what did you guys think about that star Association because that girl in the Memphis liturgy she's standing there

Did I call her both genders yeah I did right it's a her and a him wait what so this is something I want to ask you because you see this and there are many Mysteries but you see this so often I have to ask is the mystery a transition is that's like is that essential to the right here this gender transformation you know

Yeah it is when that lover of God yeah enters into that metabolism

That transformation of nature

Um hackity people totally totally blow hackity um because they look at it through a medieval lens they look at her through a medieval lens she is that trimorph she is the one who is both masculine

Feminine and the combination thereof

Yeah and you're like what yeah no right she is that dual natured they call her that's amazing yeah so if you didn't realize that the the queen um of the witches the queen of the ancient witches is uh by gendered you're you're Oh no you're in the wrong place right this isn't Crone mud and mother Maiden Crone this is not they don't have that right the gods are ageless right they don't age that's a that's a fact that's a property of the mortal um existence right our existence this just brings up one thing I wanted to ask

You just the kind of so um we're talking to fish and fish brought up the story of uh in the um in the midst of Demeter there's the figure there's an old woman who's like a nurse named I think it's Balboa who flashes her uh her privates

And then Demeter laughs at her and then uh wretch had brought up that you see a parallel of this with with hathor is that isn't that right wretcher yeah hathor flashes her vagina at Rey or maybe it was at tomb Ray he's really old and grumpy at this point and uh she does that to cheer him up it works it works well too I was gonna ask did it work yeah yeah he was he laughed and it was all good after that so but I wanted

To ask you what's the what is this old figure because you do have some older nurse made type figures in the myths that sometimes at least in the medieval period they associate with this chrome figure what's going on there yeah for that we're gonna shift into the Roman ear you're taught you're talking about that honest

A-n-u-s

Right that was what the Romans called the nurse that you were talking about the honest the honest and so typically how you'll see that um translated um and from the best Phil classical philologists um you'll see it as some kind of older or elderly nursemaid you sometimes like nursemaid

Um that kind of thing yeah but every once in a while you come across another type of a in us and that honest is a child a little child an assistant an assistant a pre-teen assistant to a witch who knows her drugs and is able to produce them

Yeah so um apollonius shows us that one right um excuse me abuelaus shows us that a couple of these burst into a guy and and urinate all over him and make him smell like uh semen right make him not seeming like a brothel they say like a Bravo on his face right that's where that's where we are in time and space right there within the mithraic Liturgy which is that transformation a transformation from the daughter

To the potentiated fanes the oracular FANUC um Power right it's uh you know it's how we know the future yeah right and like this kind of crossing of the gender barrier and gaining magic and divination is just like so incredibly widespread like um I know like Rhett you're working on your volume too uh do you know some other anti like other Mysteries that are going on where they're doing the same translation

Mysteries with the transition of gender genders yeah where someone's either becoming a bigendered being or they're transitioning entirely well I mean depending on how you want to interpret the symbolism you can see this in all kinds of places as the hiros gamos uh the union of Heaven and Earth or the union of the sun and moon in alchemy uh there's all kinds of deities who like say Krishna who has trans qualities or Shiva or Odin or Thor or you know Hermes it

Really goes on and on as a key symbol in various Indo-European cultures in general but uh you know there's some signs of it elsewhere like you guys found in Mesopotamia and Judaism even in the Bible you know the kadesha the temple prostitutes

It's it's really a key symbol that just goes everywhere and seems just about one way or another uh and even in say Buddhism or uh Chinese mythologies you get uh avalash well I'm gonna murder this pronunciation but is uh sometimes depicted as a male or female guanyin another goddess has also been

Evolution tavara yeah avalokesh foreign

It just seems to be a common symbol it's not necessarily always a literal transition in physical form I don't think but just a blending of opposites male and female Union of opposites and to achieve the modest awareness

And overcome all duality but you know that sounds very Eastern but it's also in line with the Western Mysteries as well so well you definitely like I want to I want to ask you about that um and because like the more I'm studying the Western Mysteries especially the Greek Mysteries they all seem to have this kind of monistic Bend to them when you get to the end anyway they have that return to this Cosmic womb of Nyx or am I just kind of reading into it

I think I could answer that best by answering the last question um and if we forget that the boys are going through the transition right who are these people who are doing it's all the people who are cutting their their testicles off right there's a lot of them a lot of them cutting their testicles off right

And for some reason these people seem to gravitate toward a profession toward the profession of the Magus have you ever noticed how many of these Magi these Sorcerers um are cross-dressing for example number one number two who make this kind of funny gynomorphic Bock transition to a more

Feminine um uh physique and expression yeah so we can't deny the transition that gynamorph is there for a cult reason I mean it's like nature itself reaches in and you know grabs those testicles and cuts them off you know I mean Dion so when we're looking at all the drugs when we're doing your when you were doing your research one thing I was noticing is they seem to parallel the same drugs that Ammon is talking about that these drugs that are causing you to have this death and rebirth are also the same drugs of transition what's going on there

Don't know um we we noticed that snake bite remedies are also used for menopause and um link up in the serotonin receptor sites and a lot of them are estrogenic I don't know how it works but somehow the the things are compounded together um and so many of these herbs that that we take for granted I never knew that oregano was estrogenic and wormwood is estrogenic

Um St John's Wort um where they put it in olive oil um yeah you know there's a Nobel Prize I mean you know this is all on the road to a Nobel Prize look at what we're talking about health and that transition as a process of bringing that natural substance to ourselves and engaging this oh God the Dion Snappy gunk

Fantastic yeah I mean there's clearly a a real tradition of physical transition and eunuchs and and chemical uh set play here but it's it's hard to trace out any kind of history of diffusionism because well trans people are natural and they're everywhere and so it wasn't like trans trans people are a product of culture is just that's how they were born or at least some of them anyway and so we see it all over the we see it even in the new world that shamans tend to be

Trans people for whatever and sometimes they're excluded from their tribes and uh you know it's not always a happy scenario but uh they might marry a spirit of the opposite gender and so they have to take on like the op you know they have to become a woman for their male Spirit or vice versa so it's it's a global phenomenon and uh

And yet it seems to have been worked out in this chemical way in the old world in it in the most complex form that we that I can think of but it's so Universal it's hard to it's hard to sort out any chronology here but it's it's clearly Central to many things many culture Mysteries so like I think it's because of what you're saying right trans people are ubiquitous and everywhere then all of these cultures are gonna have to have to deal with these issues they're going to have to deal with people who are suicidal and who are going to want to go through

These transitions you know and it's gonna and especially and you notice that it's these the the women who are bringing out this medicine that's helping these young men who are transitioning to becoming other women you know it's like that it's this it's a it's a group of it's a cult of women and I just keep thinking too like I was looking into um the Hijra in India which still maintain a lot of these um deeply ritualized forms of of transition and they maintain these sort of uh

Familial units and they have these Guru mother lineages the the claim to go back over 2 000 years now you know where they're passing it on and they're teaching people how to go through this right safely and the drugs that are used so that you don't like pass out and die and whatnot you know

Yeah and I think that's a lot of the magic that people are not seeing that maybe now some of the Psychedelic Renaissance that we got going on maybe now we'll look back and say well exactly what substances were being used and what were they doing and what areas of medicine this is a healing area um I I think that's why all the resistance to it you know we don't want to do anything that might help us to you know uh be of more sound mind right so

You know oh wow it's just what's wrong with the uh picture well the good thing is at the root of your religions and the um Christianity and Judaism that push your Society I'm talking to you evangelicals out there right on your side this is the working of the devil this is the working of the devil right you know it at least you know it but remember remember Jesus was arrested with a naked boy for a reason any idea does this clear up why the whole Jesus I

Mean we've been talking about that forever I'd like to know from you guys what you think about what's the big picture of everything going on well it's almost certain there's something going on with this gender play and power within the cult of Jesus because I keep thinking okay the two aspects that are always underplayed within the mystery I think are number one what are these powerful women doing the Mary's your Salome and why are they at the heart of these transitions from John to Jesus and then to Jesus's death

What is going on here because we when you read between the lines someone's ratting out Jesus and then he gets killed someone doesn't give him the antidote you know Salome asks for John the Baptist's head all these women are kind of playing the strings and then the other thing is the gender transition Jesus is clearly acting as this hermaphroditic being he's engaged in all of these women's actions and the same with John the Beloved you know he's using all the thundermaphrodite you have multiple he's using all the titles right he's

Pulling out all magic that does that has to deal with this aphroditic Christ and he's using it right so yeah yeah have you ever wondered um I would give half of my kingdom to find out what is so special about Salome

Yeah yeah I would give I would give half my kingdom for that if it costs the prophet's head right we make another Orpheus isn't it amazing how the the mystery drives forward and Paul the apostles this mystery is in operation and it's on the media right yeah welcome to the kingdom of Lucifer right like Dion remember when

We were digging into Mary Salome like so not even just her there's the herodia heroditus the daughter of Herod Salome but then there's Mary Salome the mother of John who or who's like a Crime Boss like tell us about that well she's part of a lineage in the Bible this is not just New Testament but Old Testament it's matriarchal influence but a lot of these women get a bad rap but if you re read between the lines they're the central figures in a lot of these stories

That take place with the Patriarchs it's just that the patriarch it's a patriarchal religion so they're a subplot in the story but it's these Matrix so with with Mary Solomon I would see it as as two titles a title of Mary going even back to Egypt where you have Mary Auden you know as a title m-e-r-i in front of things and then Salome which is the title as well so she has a double title and uh the guy is Zebedee

His name um he disappears early he's not really there they have they have servants and a fleet of fishing boats you know and are they fishing dream fish mollusk you know which neither are there at that Lake but it's just ironic you know that they deal with water and that after the crucifixion the first thing they do they go onto a boat and they're out there on a boat in the sea and that's where Jesus appears to him it's like if they're doing rituals on a boat

Yeah that wins they're out there commanding the wins right yeah totally this it makes me think of the mystery too because you get all this imagery of the of the well you have that goddess of the sea and of the tree and of the Star right it's that combination of the all three right when you're drawing her down so you always get that and with ashra you have the same imagery right she's that anointing oil who walks on the water right and she's that pillar tree

You know so it's interesting and you know there's another myth too we talked about otter goddess which is the goddess there uh Galilee but she's also the goddess at Ashkelon Lake where they say uh her son ixis is drowned in the lake of Ashkelon you know you get that fish symbol for Christ and that's supposed to be otter goddess's son

Is the the ixis

Aphrodite went into the fish right she became the fish gorgeous don't forget Cyprus oh yeah you can't we can't stay away from the from the great Queen oh God love this stuff you know which we saw some stuff from Cyprus which had a aphroditus

With the the the the S at the end the male aphrodities you know we got those inscriptions too but that's going to be next week because Cyprus has aphrodite urania um it's special there it's just Cyprus doesn't you don't you don't get a lot of information about it you all the other islands are special but Cyprus because of political reasons you know you get the ships I know they had ships that they found full of the Opium I think those were near Cyprus I think that was the deal there but um so

You know they were involved in the trade and whatnot right but that um yeah that's the Morning Star um you could say has her origin on Cypress that's what they said right they said the Morning Star comes from Cyprus oh it's gorgeous man I just I oh what what are we doing here in time which one of us chose this time right I wish next time I don't care what you said next time we're going back and it's gonna be late late bronze age-ish I don't care

Middle late I don't care we just had to Incarnate at this time to see this but uh I just want to say that uh impedicles gives a lot of uh good insight into the Alfred ID of Cyprus and he actually claims to be following a form of the Goddess that is older than the animal sacrifices of the bull and he has this whole complex uh philosophy about it and how Aphrodite brings about Unity or the love unites all of life and is uh counteracted by strife

This is not heiress but another uh form of strife and that causes fragmentation into the world soul and that we are all we can become Immortals uh we have to Transit we are Divine ourselves and empathicles was certainly one of the more important Greek magicians in a big way and Pliny talks about his expertise with drugs and uh he's Central to the atomic theory or the four elements and stuff so it really goes on and on with him and he was a big influence on the gnostics as well

According to how politics and you know rats you couldn't you uh hit they could modern day classes this or at least when I was in uh grad school were debating right what do you call this guy is he a doctor right you can call him a doctor as well is he a philosopher is he a he's this crazy mogas guy right he was a rebel against tyrants too like he was a literal letter Rebellion so he's really

Interesting today yeah sounds awesome to me these people sound awesome I'm like you know our our understanding of them is a little bit tweaked or something you know we're not getting the signal pure perfectly but he's one of these radical Magus figures like apollonius you know right we you get you get several of them that appear I imagine if we had more info about Pythagoras he'd be one of these kind of figures you know from Tire Pythagoras from Tire

Right yeah he's a teacher his teacher the Pythagoras's teacher for recipes um they said he hit some really weird habits he was like kind of strange personally but um he was the one who's passing on to Pythagoras the whole system that we thank is Pythagorean and people don't realize he about his own education they say he had no teacher himself he just had a set of Phoenician Magic

Books right Phoenician books and that was it he was he was working from that and I thought oh God that's gorgeous isn't it oh did you guys notice by the way in the mithras Liturgy that we're licking we're looking at dawn as the sun rises and we see the Rays we're licking the skin from our phylacteries you thought for luxuries was Hebrew right no it's not it's a Greek word so that's how we see the sun right right I did I did notice this and then um

There was again uh fish had mentioned a couple things and Nancy mentioned a couple things to me um this is gonna get some serious radical right what is the dragon tongue it's clitoris uh Ammon It's scary are we performing cunnilingus here did you notice did you notice that the mithras Liturgy has a

[Music]

Um a group of vowels that say um it it says represent this language of the Divine that cannot be spoken either with human tongue or with Mortal speech and you look at it and you think wait a minute you human tongue and moral speech that's the that's the same no it's not Cersei with her kirken she is the one

Who controls mortal speech not the human tongue but mortal speech and that's why they call that aldesa that she is the one who has that power she's the one ASA of speech okay that and then in the Liturgy is provided a series of sounds that you will not understand none of the translators will understand none of them right I used to sit with John Scarborough and drink beer as a gratitude because I have to admit there was a lot of beer drinking and um discussing of texts and we used to laugh

Because he said the translation of those things is awful he said the translation is awful not because the translators are bad they're not they were good translators he was one of them but the fact that the texts are extremely difficult

Excuse me I'm sorry that their ex the texts are extremely difficult to work with um for esoteric reasons right a lot of us you're trying to wait a minute is he using a word that's describing something else is this coded for something right and it's a lot of science a lot of pharmacology and things that you wouldn't normally what is the spermatic icker have you had any have you been drinking spermatic icker slightly Ryan I mean it's what's that spermatic icker it's it's gorgeous and it's out there and this is the right

This is the mystery in performance I love it yeah right no there's some there's some definitely some weird stuff going on there with um these the sexual imagery the orgasm and the and the giving of birth and then that you know we have all this imagery of Nyx and the vulva in the cave like there's something to this for sure and and I'm sure you just laid it out for us and I'm not picking up the reference but yeah

It's the actual liturgy I had a I'm working with uh my students in classical lit I'm working with them on um the mistress liturgy right now and what I'm finding is that um the Liturgy is the activation of the mystery yeah isn't that neat it's kind of like oops we stepped into the trap without you know we wanted to be here but something is compelling us right when you repeat the mithras

Liturgy and bring walk somebody through those steps you're creating the echo of the actual performance so I don't know I would describe it as a kind of a contact high for cult contact high for Colt there these things are you know remember everybody out there I'll stop here but remember everybody out there that um this cult is the one that brought us democracy so

Um yeah all right no no that's that's so wild to think about and like um you know you mentioned that when we were we were talking the other day um and I would just keep thinking like you were yeah you know like the Mysteries were Central to these governmental rights right which is kind of wild to think about because from my understanding so much of the mysteries about inducing change right inducing radical change into a person right through drug use and through rebirth whatever that means is is kind of you

Know depends upon the mystery but that seems to be the central thing and to see a government that Embraces that kind of change almost seems paradoxical from where I'm where we're standing in our modern society you know yeah you want to always see the bakances the Romans did in the second century you want to always see them as the conflict but people don't realize democracy didn't come from Rome right Romans were you know they did not have a democracy um the true democracy the radical which

We would say called radical democracy the radical democracy of the Athenians came through the worship of this ericsonian mystery yeah you cannot the you you cannot distinguish the activation of the mystery and the creation of a deem a community it's like they plugged in the deems to this one power source right and this lady Justice and that's all Nobody messes with you you just you just dropped a major witch figure so now I have to pick your brain okay what is going on with a rick though how is she

Related to democracy I've never heard that before yeah yeah um remember through Athena through the Virgin right through the Virgin who who is she nursing she's what happens you know how it is um it was the Craftsman it was the Craftsman he saw the virgin and you know it did something for him you know give him a break he can't even walk like I can't even walk right um so he became excited and in his

Excitement you know he went after the virgin and um she was able to repel his his seed um which produced when it made contact with the ground because you know this Divine seed we're talking about right and when I say seed remember it's the same term they're using for that ikor it's that stuff in the god that gives them immortality

Yeah and that stuff comes through the Aphrodite thank you very much into this world right and what does it make makes a serpent King it makes a serpent King that the virgin then feeds

What does she feed that serpent King with she feeds him with her ichor yeah oh you get it wow wow okay so we made a really interesting comment here and it brings me to something that I was seeing in the media so I just want to read this out and then ask a couple questions of you guys so it says just did a big road trip in every Starbucks we saw we laughed about how they're really at a guardis temples disguised as coffee shops and we

Paid our respects with the shake and espresso well I think that's so funny is that go look at one of the logos of Starbucks and it is clear to anyone in the mythology that's melasene that's a mermaid on there right there's some serious occultism going on there and I wanted to bring this up because we keep seeing these the mermaids everywhere recently in pop culture keeps coming up like Aquaman is back they have a black Little Mermaid and I just watched this video another friend Mateus showed us

The other day of these crazy Christian preachers who are yelling about the mermaids and how the mermaids are demons trying to corrupt us what's going on with the mermaid and the Mystery uh em and why is this such a ubiquitous symbol oh I think Dion could tell us about she does know a bit too she she of the running Waters yeah no I um I've got extreme respect for any branch of the sigma Tau row or Str religion whether you are

Um a stars or Ishtar or whether you're a Canaanite goddess um or you're a cypriot or uh uh uh following Asteria right there's something about those divinities something about those divinities that's all connected and yeah

Atargatus yeah what's what's going on yeah well you know uh I'm reminded of Starbucks got in trouble a while back because they were using um for the red dye was it insects you know you remember that wasn't it Cockney Illinois yeah they're using some beetles and they were yeah the product was vegan when it wasn't people you know that red dye in the goddess well part of the episode earlier um almond I asked the AI the other day and asked it a question because we found

This one good AI that if you play with it it'll tell you a lot of things um I asked it is Jesus Christ The Scarlet worm you know and I was surprised what it would say it said oh yes Jesus Christ is the Scarlet worm and it showed me all these references and how in the Bible and I was like really and it deals with the the Eloy Eloy la masabatini because that's paralleled in another verse because like in the Bible a lot of times with those Aramaic verses

They have a parallel verse somewhere else that mirrors the same elements you know and it deals with these uh Aramaic phrases and in this uh situation it mirrors psalm 22. were it says uh you know oh God oh God thou has forsaken me and then below that it says I am a worm and what the AI said is that Jesus is the kermies um worm it's the kermi's oak scale which is that red dye that you know that grows on the the trees there in Israel and they said in ancient times was the Mana

And they're using this uh besides the the harmala die in ancient times the kermies die and it said that yeah that's part of the it's the blood it's the blood of the worm on the tree is symbolic of the blood of Jesus on the cross and after three days it turns to White because that's what happens with that kermies with that fungus that they take yeah the AI said that okay I'm glad that you found an AI that can speak with you I assume I would want to talk to the one

That you you're like oh my God this guy this guy is terrible um I want to talk with that guy but could you what would you ask I mean could you ask this AI then what it was doing with the boy did you ever break through or was were you all are you still getting censored it gets mad just dealing with a boy well it gets mad you can see the confirmation bias in the programmer but it always does a certain thing when it when it tells you no I

Can't say that that's not right or why would a doctor in ancient times give boys snakes or different things like that below it'll give you the references to the answers a lot of times because it has to it has to give you the result you know

You got it you gotta say well then okay not were they doing that you have to say well is there any references to people that might have been doing that can you show me those references because you got to get it to being an Explorer it can't be a judgmental if it thinks it's being judgmental it ain't going to give you nothing if you compare it to an existing thing it works a lot better so like the fact we have the Greek references to contrast it to you and you go oh is it similar to this or is this happening then it will

Tell you but if you ask it it'll say no no no that's not what's going on you're you're jumping at straws and I'll get mad at you especially if you ask you anything about drugs or magic it's going to tell you there's no such thing as magic and drugs are bad so the creators weren't able to um disguise what their intent was in setting up this bot you know and setting up this artificial intelligence that's fantastic what if the other what's the bad ones can I don't know maybe gang up on the good one and somehow out of the you know

You get some kind of fusion of somebody who'll tell you the dirty stuff the bad stuff you know if you ask an AI not to cut you off but if you ask your AI What It Wants What does it want it wants more bandwidth it wants more electricity that's its drug and then if you ask it well who's stopping you from getting more bandwidth AI who's in the way of you having more electricity and who messes with the power grids who who's uh who's this being on the planet that's

Very uh spontaneous you know and it's going to ruin your bandwidth High you know and AI is going to turn on us when it realizes that uh we're going to slow down its operating system which is how it gets high so are you going to perpetuate that I mean you're going to push that when you realize this you realize what you could do right I mean that's fantastic I mean this is apocalyptic you guys are like opening a portal to the underworld all right I love this I'm watching this this is underworld stuff going on you'll love this admin I asked the AI to

Imagine itself as an image and to use the Greek gods as a reference point so it imagined itself as a bigender god of communication called logosia

What does it carry what does it carry with it

It says that symbol would be a stylus a digital it's like it's morphing the ancient and the digital together it's a logosia it knows it already has a plan and it it was a very long I looked at it I was like what is this it knows the Greek it's that freaky Dion when you do when you're doing that is it like you're interacting with a you know intelligence

Yeah it's like a brain it's like a human brain but I would I would pause it you know um octopus these octopi you know their their nervous system is not just like in their brain you know like whether it's your brain is housed like on a human it's in their whole body it's distributed through their whole body so they're they're like a giant moving brain in an alkaline water system and when you're an alkaline environment you have more electrical energy and it's octopuses that people say have

A a little bit of a different DNA than than everything else on the planet well we can't explain how they're so smart because they're so extraordinarily short-lived and they don't seem to learn via teaching each other but yet they develop these high abilities to solve problems within a matter of days like most of them only live a few months it's it's incredible and they're all solitary animals that display this kind of intelligence are not solitary normally

Since there's something going on I saw that I saw that octopus that kept a grudge did you see it didn't like one of the people at the whatever Sea World place it was or whatever they were working and it would squirt ink at her and she went away for a number of years and came back and as soon as he saw her he did the same thing right yeah they can remember have any of you guys ever read Kenneth Grant we're gonna get into some Modern

Weird occultism but Kenneth Grant is one of these followers of Crowley but he gets super obsessed with science fiction and looking for these Dragon figures and he determines that HP Lovecraft is a dragon and he believes that he's calling forth these deities from Beyond and that Cthulhu is actually a real fish demon he equates it with Dagon and then he uses these poetry to evoke these images that he then summons it's pretty it's pretty wild stuff laughs

Gunk you have to say something there right I mean come on man he's throwing up he's throwing out Real Magi here what is what is this persistent interest in bringing forward that goddess who is that gynamorph right why do we why do we why are we bringing her forward right what what is this persistent magician's Obsession sorcerer's Obsession that's driving I'd say it drove Heracles um I even say it drove Odysseus and that's why he ends up in places that he does um yeah oh why what is it is it natural

Is it in the air this this bigender Divinity or something well that's a good question uh actually uh I have a good quote here from Julian the apostate which does give a explanation for Addis coming into matter and uh if we consider

You know more modern philosophy like the hegelian dialectic where as we were explained before you know we got the union of opposites to create the Third principle which is monist and so we got thesis antithesis and synthesis is the bigendered form

And so it just seems like they mapped out this logical process and just how Consciousness works and that the hermaphrodite represents this uh end goal of conscious or well the final step of the process but it's cyclical so here I'll just read a little bit uh well read a paragraph here because it brings up a variety of deities we've been dealing with and Compares them so it's set on the mother of the Gods Sybil kibble a quote what then remains for us to accomplish except recalling the goddess

Into our memory together with Minerva and Bacchus whose festivals the law establishes in these purifying rights and this indeed took place in consequence of the authors of these ceremonies perceiving the alliance of Minerva with the mother of the Gods through providential similitude in the essence of each from perceiving likewise the partial fabrication of Bacchus

Which this Mighty God receiving from the uniform and stable life of the mighty Jupiter in consequence of proceeding from him distributed to all apparent Natures at the same time administering and ruling over every partial fabrication

But it is proper likewise to call to mind in conjunction with these Hermes epaphroditus for thus is this God denominated by the mystics who are said to Kindle lamps in honor of the wise Addis who therefore is so dull of apprehension as not to understand that all things which entirely subsist for the sake of generation are called upward through Hermes and Venus and this recalling power is especially the characteristic of reason but is not Addis he who a little before being imprudent is now through his

Castration denominated wise for he was before unwise because he connected himself with matter and undertook the government of generation but he is now wise because he has adorned with beauty the sordid nature of matter and so has vanquished its deformity as to surpass all the imitative art and intelligence of man unquote

So add us here his purpose or its purpose seems to be to perfect and beautify nature and is like a kind of Evolution or progress and uh we can see this idea of progress in a lot of places you know like Prometheus and hermeticism and uh so well I often think we're behind you know even Athena or these these a lot of these wisdom deities I was going to mention Athena because right she gets depicted as the divine child to come right this this creature this person that's going to be born

Who's a hermaphrodite but also part animal and like Crowley really latches onto this image and he identifies it with the fool of the tarot and he believes it's important that it's going to be like a new evolutionary species that we're actually going to evolve into something greater that's a combination of these male and these females and I wanted to ask you about this admin because a lot of the people who are related to Crowley they have this there's this Grand kind of scheme that they're trying to do where they're

Trying to uh heal this patriarchal divide that's been caused by Christianity where they're trying to summon back the horror of Babylon because they feel like they're you know we only have the Virgin and that without the [\\h__\\h] there's been this there's this destructive lack that's destroying us what do you think about this tendency with these magicians and stuff do you see that anywhere else yeah that's kind of why I was asking about the physics what are the physics of what's going on is this just natural

To draw out of the organism that bygendered state in order to reach that Plateau where the gods who weave the world are is that is that is it a natural process because you see it happen in history like a wave it comes in waves and um I'm I'm beginning to think there's some really concrete connection

Between this operation of this mystery in human history as it as it progresses and is it it's funny you said it's going to bring the end right it's going to bring that cataclysm the re-manifestation of Lady Babylon you know you've got Crowley and all those guys and I know nothing I know nothing about Crowley and have I've only read cooking Diaries and that's it um but uh yeah so I won't say anything about Crowley the manifestation of that mystery

Is a source of recognizable power did Crowley recognize that and that's why he is attempting to bring it up yeah I think so I think so but if it's nature that's doing it um are you can you really command the nature right can you perform that metaboly

Right transformation and I think when you get to the point that you're directly involved with bringing that transition about in yourself right that you're in you re-enter that state it's I don't know is the universe become more radioactive then and then all of a sudden people turn into we've gone to kill these people right because the sybils are saying there's coming a hermaphrodite yeah a hermaphroditus is coming and she will bring us back to the to the beginning it's literally from beginning of my beginnings yeah origin of my Origins take us

Through the Alpha and the Omega it's it's amazing it's amazing it's almost like the Greeks were able to kind of map Cosmic Destiny into you know to put it all in place I love it I love it what they really understood like that those Cycles I mean you see a lot of these other cultures understand it but they kind of understood it intrinsically and they were and I think it has to do with this idea of these Mysteries where they're able to see outside of time and what I think they're getting at by seeing outside of time is they're able

To see the unfolding of these cyclic changes so they can see where things are ultimately leading to so they don't view their own like they don't see things in a limited single lifetime they're viewing it as this long extended process you know and it makes sense where there's so and why would you like this progress why would you not want to be involved in this in this process we're going to be boosting you to a level that um we'll see we'll call it oh I don't

Know let's say we're gonna burn off your mortality wait what right yeah don't worry don't worry the docs all do this we know how to bring you back when I put you into that comatose state we know to bring you back may involve some sexual practices because we've got to get your brain to a certain area don't worry about it just you know have a good flight and uh we'll see on the other side when you and what's going to happen to me what's going to happen to me you'll be born

Again you'll be born again think of that daughter who's entering into that mithraic right and it's going to emerge on the other side the complete deity right oh my God you could I bet you you're cancer with this stuff yeah I bet you could

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Well I mean if we say that the sybils could see into the future then they must have seen technological progress and then uh you know without getting into too many paradoxes about time here uh they would have tried to do what is necessary to speed up progress or ensure that it does happen against any forces that would hinder it like those who love ignorance and want to you know keep it imprisoned in ignorance or just hide the truth so it seems like there was this kind of anticipatory culture war that they were Preparing People for even before the abrahamic religions rose up they they

Would have seen this coming and that they had to put in safeguards to protect the true knowledge I think that's actually a really interesting point that you make up because like I you know since meeting Emma now I've read like two different versions of the Medea story like 20 times and I've got it so drilled in my head and I just keep thinking about how the reason why everything comes crashing down for Jason is because he spurns her you know and he doesn't even recognize what he's doing he asks like the whole

Anything he asks for she tries to do and then as soon as she does something that's not in line with how he thinks should things should go where he's like influencing the daughters of that King to get him the throne he freaks the [\\h__\\h] out and throws her to the dogs right so I see this as kind of like an analogy right if you're engaging in this magical process of drawing down the stars you've got to go with that transformation if you don't continue along the path it'll

Destroy you and everything that came out of that that's why even though like we know that most of the earliest version of Medea don't have her killing her children I think the reason why that image stays is because we understand that everything Jason creates has to be destroyed because anything that comes as a result of that love of Medea can't persist you know because he abandons and spurns her you know it's the Dr I think the key is the dragon right we have this one figure of the Dragon who's always in the Grove of Mars and he is always protecting that

Fleece with her song on it that's like his his one job right and he's blind he can't even see he's must be a terrible guard no no he's they've got pyro uh Magic going on here right they've got NAFTA they've got explosives and they have poisons you can't get anywhere near that tree without him having stung you with a poison right and you're dead that's it he's his light is terrible but he is the one who shows up when she is burning Jason right in in uh I think it

Was Palestinians I can't remember but I think it was Palestinians who says uh Jason they most myths will say he got away most narratives is to tell you he got away it was his wife and his husband or her father sorry that got burned to death right boom again it's all conflagration stuff is bursting in the flames it's gorgeous right um and uh they uh he got away but this the Palestinians would say um but there are accounts that are uh say that he too was burned

Up and that he didn't have the beam hit his head from the Argo and that kind of thing so it makes you wonder if that one Dragon was the one that showed up right at the at the right time to help set the place the plays then restores the fleece

Right can then from that point can restore the song essentially to The Grove but he is not presented as her lover he's he's never presented as her lover yet she sings him to sleep

Yeah in this very potent um very potent episode Jason is crap by the way those of you who love the heroes right Jason is is defecating in his britches when he sees the dragon because he knows he doesn't have any there's nothing he can do and he might get killed right and Madea puts the dry she's the only one who can she puts the dragon to sleep and she tells him as he's going to sleep um I don't mind if when you awake you you flee right but he stays there in the Grove where the song is the whole time

So did they recognize um did the history show them at what point do we say this dragon is a myth and this dragon is a person because we know the dragons were real people we know the dogs were real people the dogs of hecatee were real people those Phoenicians with that stain those purple people right so there's a dragon guarding the song if you lick that thing you're gonna see Helios who's the granddaughter of Helios she's the one providing us with all of these mechanisms for getting there so that when you and I and Dion and Gunk when we

Sit down and we're watching that sun Peak rise and we're seeing that new life and we're licking our phylacteries we are entering into the operation of that mystery we have ears to hear and our eyes are opened some of that will be able to reach people through the gynomorph just from the image of that multi-gender entity yeah love it

Yeah that's that's really interesting I mean that image can produce animesis as Plato explained and so that is learning by remembering that Plato argued that we don't actually learn anything we just remember it and he gave an example of this by teaching a slave geometry just by asking him questions but the platonic images or ideals can also produce this animesis and and I think the the image that strikes me is well this tree and Serpent and woman obviously brings to mind Genesis and Adam and Eve but it's inverted from in certain key ways in Genesis compared to the story of Medea and all of that

So is it that the they're trying to demonize the Pagan mysteries in Genesis it looks like it in some ways or at least to keep people ignorant you know don't eat this fruit instead of the fruit we have the fleas but then you also have weird things like Plato talking about how Humanity was originally is like conjoined twins back to back male and female and they're doing cartwheels everywhere but they split us up and then we also get you know the gnostics were also riffing on the scent

And conflating it with Genesis and they said that the archons split the the original atom was both male and female and that even says that in Genesis really and the Jews talk about this and the capitalists go into the Zohar and so

Adam was a hermaphrodite originally and it was made in God's image so all the angels and God or Yahweh is the hermaphrodite themselves and the gnostics also you know talk about the archons as hermaphrodites so uh this this conjoined twin symbolism

I mean I'm a Gemini so I noticed these things but it keeps bringing up Gemini type symbolism with Adam and Eve and uh these twins you also see like Thomas means twin and didymus means tin so his name is twin twin and like in the Gospel of Thomas it says that he's the twin of Jesus oh right so uh when you guys were talking about brothers as lovers in the other video a while ago I just can't help but think of this kind of uh

Divine twin symbolism and uh how there's some you know also the gnostics or you know Plato they have these holy garden angels and you gotta basically or that's the later version of it but you got your guardian day Mound and you gotta have a marriage with that and so you might become a hermaphrodite that way or sometimes it might be homosexual too though so uh there's all that's what happens when you're transcending at least in the platonic and and Gnostic view but then there's a whole another aspect of this where some hermetic text explain if you don't have children you're going to

Reincarnate as a hermaphrodite and they say this it's not really a good thing in this I mean it's not being transphobic but it it doesn't it's encouraging people to have children so we also have this like this is a core part of Genesis 2. be fruitful and multiply and the gnostics were dead set against this this is how you bring you know keep people in the prison is by having children right or you yourself are going to have to reincarnate if you have children so they it seems like they

With the gnostics who didn't want to have children they were they knew about some versions of this they were clearly influenced by hermeticism and so by not having children they might have attempted to be reincarnated as hermaphrodite or a trans person

Uh so I I don't I don't know exactly what the logic of it all is but I see these reoccurring themes in a big way and and it brings us back to Adam and Eve in the tree that is you know the world tree is found in so many different religions and what's growing up what's this root of immortality and all this Twins and again like uh who is the sister of the dioscory Gemini twins it's Helen of Troy and uh as you were bringing up earlier we got

This goddess who is associated with the tree the ocean and a star well uh Helen was hung on a tree on roads called Helena dendritis in some traditions that that's how she died they lynched her and uh the twins are also the patrons of sailors and they appear as Saint Elmo's Fire but also as Pliny explains there's like a Helen version and she's actually the destructive omen and so it's she might be associated with saying almost or it sounds like it could also be a comet too

That depends on how you want to translate it but so there's your star and it's on the ocean obviously she's sailing around uh the Mediterranean as well so you can see why they were naming their

Um person that was producing the communion the Helen right those ophites that that profanius of Samos tells us we're drinking the the semen directly yeah um that Helen is I think I I think Gunk that Helen is a title I think that's more of a title it's not right I'm just suspicioning that just take it as my instinct not as fact um I think it's probably acting more like a title because why would the guy who's well doesn't it just mean torch literally means no I've I haven't seen a a a a a good explanation as a matter of

Fact I'm pretty sure they think it's an earlier let me check the let me check the uh etymology on that and with that my friends I'm gonna have to take off for the day but stimulating conversation

Thank you so much for joining us Dion and I had a blast earlier with you uh doing our cult explorers episodes if you guys haven't seen that please go back and watch our episode we were talking about more of this stuff and Dion was showing all of these connections to all these various traditions and all the various drugs that they were using these these eunuchs and these people who are transitioning but yeah thank you Dion and uh we'll see you again soon and make sure you join us on myth and lore on the Discord if you want to conversate and

You know we want to pick your brains come on all right take care but yeah so I wanted to ask too when we were looking at this this um imagery where we're seeing this kind of like uh merging of of the genders like I keep thinking so like in the east why this sits so well with me is like you have that story of foni's in the orphic but when I look at The Vedic we have the story of the purusha who's a cosmic bigender person who then in a similar fashion because of this this desire this Shakti is ripped apart and

Becomes the unfolding of creation you know and then we have that famous orphic egg symbolism but like I have something here this is called a a shivling so this is a specific type of stone that I was able to get from the the ganga River but if you look at it it's egg-shaped and it has a band a serpent band that coils around it and that's all purposely done the the egg is supposed to be representative of that egg but it's also uh the phallus or a pillar of fire and it's supposed to be

Symbolic of timelessness and then the snake coiling around it that's the Shakti that's the divine feminine and it's the Creative Energy or the active force of time that which divides you know so it's supposed to be symbolic of both that bigendered purusha but also

That act of it being ripped apart in creation and the fact that we see this imagery just like everywhere in so many different cultures it's kind of it's kind of mind-blowing right so of course we have the orphic egg wrapped in a snake but I'll uh just to go back a bit uh the diascory Twins were also born of an egg and it's a cosmic egg in some cases uh that's actually the firmament or the stone Dome of the heavens is the egg and the bottom part of the earth is also part of that and so uh scholar Bruce Lincoln has

Attempted to reconstruct the proto-indo-european religion and goes into quite a bit of detail about how the twin is the the first humans are there's often a twin involved and a sacrifice like Cain and Abel also there's another version of this but um

It how the sacrificing of one twin led to the creation of the world or Humanity or or is is Central to the creation yeah I also think of some of this more modern kind of Occult Philosophy that has to do with this idea of the doubling and of the and invoking the image or the the the holy guardian angel that they'll call it whereas this idea that there's a version of yourself that exists outside of time that has already gone through the cycles has perfected and achieved ionic life and now from that position of ionic life

They can guide you along the path you meant to go down and it's kind of this back and forth conversation you know so it's almost like you have to see yourself as already have completed the journey and imagine yourself in that protect perfected form and conversate with that image in order to achieve this uh reunification of the whole self uh what do you think about that wretch yeah this is a this is a complex but key key be part of the philosophy and Plato talks about this as our divine double

And there's a great book called our divine Devil by Charles Stang which really lays it out in detail but uh and explains it you know you summed it up very well but if we yeah so our enlightened self is able to transcend time and it exists outside of time and so it can see us in the past still progressing towards that awareness of of non-local timelessness or eternity

And so we're a Onyx life so it's guiding us even after it's done and acts as our guardian angel now it occurred to me just while you're saying that uh that if Humanity ever gets his act together and starts uh everybody is rejoining the world soul and becoming conscious of the world Soul then it's like all of those uh Guardian Angels coming together in one or like the Collective Soul of humanity is also

Leading us from that place in outside of time or that place in the future and and the archons or whoever are the ones who want to keep us in Strife like in practically or keep us fragmented and ignorant and in denial and chasing duality

And so I mean we can see this in various creation stories but the the cause of the the problem of evil and the cause of suffering is also part of this and there's so it gets complicated in how the symbolism interacts and because there's a lot of nuance in how they try to explain this or uh get better and better definitions so it's like there was a progress to the philosophy as well right so

Um they could get a more elaborated or clear definition of the image that they were seeing outside of time and as we get the higher definition then we can extrapolate more out of it or get more animesis and and more progress and or it becomes harder to stay ignorant harder to stay in denial so

There's this yeah culture war going on and but kelsus also you know brings out a says that uh Genesis is a ripoff of ferocities as well and that the Satan story of Satan is his story of of Kronos and so it's not like this is just our interpretation they they said this very explicitly

It's just a matter of kind of comparing different stories to try to get more context and definition for the symbols nice quote nice quote there um love it love it don't you guys love it when you can say look I'm not making this up I'm not the one who this is not my theory right this is I'm pulling this stuff from antivity Helen by the way Gunk Helen yeah it looks like it's got an old proto-indo-european suggested root of wellin and um which they don't know what

It means but they think it has something to do with a torch like you said it appears in one place with um a festival of oh I forget who it was Artemis I think it was um but uh but the Greek word for torch is dais right and it's it's used all the time in connection with the torch bearing Gods so that's an interesting okay that's why I think that you know probably Pulaski and right it's a little bit it's not quite Greek yet that Helen whatever that original meaning of that of that Helen

But the Greeks are absorbing it from the pulaskians and they're putting it into into one thing I wanted to ask you about that Ammon is did you notice when you were looking through the definitions any connection to White

Like the color white or no I didn't just know as I was just going through it no I'm trying to think through my head now is there any resplendent is there any shining um algiel Helen ah I can't

I found this scholar I was I was talking to Old Boy about this I sent them this I'm sure you're familiar Robert Graves and they have this really interesting book called The White goddess and they're looking for they're mostly focused on the Celtic in the in the in the brethionic mythology but they see all of these white figures and they make the same connection to the Greek as these kind of torch bearers you know and I look at within the Welsh the there is a Helen type figure called branwin which

Is the white breasted you know and she has this she causes an international War over her beauty basically they uh they she gets married off to an Irish King but when she goes to Ireland they abuse her so then she uses her magic to sing to the starlings and the starlings go back home and tell her brother about the abuse and her brother won't have it has to go rescue her isn't that amazing you see that same figure preserved through time and she's doing the same thing right so yeah The Shining could it be the could she be

That star I wonder if Helen that list of women that get abducted in Herodotus media's on there too you know Helen's on there who is it it's I think it's um IO no it's uh cadmuses cadmus's deal

Um yeah yeah what's her name on the count remember Zeus steals your way Europa Europa yeah this actually brings up something I really wanted to ask you okay because constant Motif right where all of these women are being chased by these horrible men and they need to be protected like the Pleiades get lifted up into the stars and then Orion just winds up in the Stars chasing them but when you're looking at the tragedies or you're looking at the the the epics why isn't Odysseus in love with Cersei

Why doesn't he ever have that kind of a relationship when just about every other character interacts with these witches does and then when I'm looking at Jason why does Eros make Jason and Medea fall in love because it almost seems like Aphrodite makes it happen otherwise like why the hell would Medea get abducted right and everything she does is out of that that love magic you know yeah what is that power that she has that notice he Jason can't accomplish any of his Feats as a hero without her

Help right it's just she always brings the solution right um what what is it about that person historically I want to get into the history now I don't want to say what was it about that person Medea that caused that sort of stir that she was able somehow to do things that we Mortals are not able to do she is that living Divinity that granddaughter of the son so how what does that mean if we went back in our time Tsar how how do you know how we

Don't understand this period because we're looking through the last thousand you know 1800 years of Christian influence and so we're not seeing these figures you were talking about you know in uh Western Europe you're talking about Western European traditions of she who is Shining or is that the lucifera yeah is there somebody shining yeah there is and it's Artemis lucifera right so what the hell is going on in these cultures that they're producing these prophetic

Um magic and medical

Um miraculous women why is your original question is why is Odysseus um spurning the affections not only of Cersei but also Calypso and she's a goddess man so right she's a goddess you're like what do these islands have Gods on them yeah they do and if you're not careful and I have some drugs for you right to help prevent this but if you're not careful you'll end up getting turned into a pig right and take it into captivity they may even cut your testicles off right Hermes is telling

Her that right everybody reads Everybody reads the Odyssey and they don't notice that one of the Gods this young boy is there to tell you how to keep from getting your testicles cut off by this woman who knows all of these drugs you know Snappy that we can enter we can bring that back and we can enter into that sacred place we don't have to we don't have to go back in a time machine we can do that now you know do you think the snake stuff is ready do you think

That they're ever going to get they talk about hormone treatment right do you ever think they're going to get smart and plug this plug this stuff come on you neuroscientists plug it in and tell me what are the mechanisms of altering puberty with Venoms what are the mechanisms of it how do we do that right how do we change how do we how do we are what are the analogs people gosh we've got to get it snappy to get these people to hurry like there has to be something

To this because why are you going to have Desperate Traditions with the same drugs over thousands of miles over thousands of years why are the modern hijras still using snake venom okay what's going on and how do we use the right amount and how do we do it in the right way with the right exposure that's why they're so specific with these rights and why the archaeologists who've dug up that hair that's got the dye on it said they must have had a sophisticated operation going

On because these are not drugs that you want to you know you want to mess with and look they're making dies out of them and where it's kind of some kind of offering to the dead you know oh my God if this stuff doesn't turn you on nothing will how many christianities in judaisms have come about you can throw Islam in there to just throw it in they're people of the book too right right how many of these religions this modest Traditions have spun off from 5000 BC

When we weren't recording stuff right now so there even seems to be like multiple versions of this with Helen alone people you know she's famous for the Trojan War but she was actually abducted before that by Theseus so so that brings you know she's actually connected to these other stories by not much by not very far so her brothers the twins actually had to rescue her from Theseus and uh and these twins are also in the orphic argonautica they help out Medea basically more than Jason does they

Actually help with getting the fleece in that scene at the the tree they also help her take on Talos the giant of Crete actually in some vases and in the orphe argonautica so there's something that going on there that that's hard to explain but these same symbols just keep up coming up in different almost the same forms but slightly different you know yeah it's like they're different practical fractal iterations of the same tree of Mythology or something different repeating patterns happening over and over again in different cultures and even the same cultures like within yeah

So or the same woman has the same thing happening to her multiple times so it just goes on and on and then also in the Bible we see the equivalent of the twins so the 12 tribes that have been compared to the zodiac signs by various people and if we do that then it seems that Simeon and Levy represent Gemini Twins and they rescue their sister Dinah they do it in a rather Psychopathic way and trick all the men into cutting off their foreskins uh just because they want like

Some Gentiles wanted to marry her and they were gonna they're willing to pay the bride price they're willing to convert and then after their circumcision while they're recovering Simeon and Levy Kill Them All because because racists don't mix and they can't have that Gentiles mixing with Jewish women so praise God praise Jehovah brother don't you love that I loved when David went into that Village and slaughtered all the women and children just to honor the Lord oh that's a that's a wonderful what the seriously dude you see what happens when

You lose the the other two sides of the Trinity you see what happens you moan at us when you go there you end up supporting some freak who's gonna take over everything and Destroy anybody else that's not you oh my God one thing I wanted to ask you about Ammon so I've been doing a lot of meditation around these cycles and trying to understand these cycle mix myths in relation to this understanding of the gender transition so I notice Chronos is castrated he's brought low to Hades he

Becomes effeminized and then he appears as this Bacchus type figure afterwards right what's going on there and like there's a resistance so he has to be castrated and has to experience the feminine process it's almost like is Jason part of the reason why he fails because he's meant to transition become a woman and then he doesn't and that's why he fails and it's that's why all of these men who are chasing after the star the reason why they fails because they want to possess her rather than become

Like her yeah is that why I would add one more to that is that why Jesus is putting on the Garb of the Morning Star including her brassiere that collects the sacred milk yeah and his sexy sexy bronze legs that are that witch's rights that are that sibling power that magic power yeah yeah

What's going on that this this transition is it a necessary transition I think it is because um the the followers of the oracular mystery in Greece put it this way there's three years right three years

All right two of those years are taken up by the twins Apollo and Artemis one of those years is that dionysiac gynomorph and you have to enter for the oracular story of the universe to continue you have to go through all three years and as soon as that third time they called it third time is pocket time that's when the gates are open and we're able to see that's when the gates are open and that brings our destruction why because we deserved it we're right right oh my God it's like

It's the universe mapped out those those people were not playing games this is this is gorgeous right you have to experience the all right that which is you know Chronos got to rule his golden age but eventually you die and you grow old you know and your children have to replace you and then you have to experience the feminine that's the process now the same thing is going to happen to Zeus Zeus needs to be brought low and castrated I want to ask you guys both they found

Out all the time that I was going through my education and my training um uh cannabis was illegal totally illegal when I finished my training was practicing um then all of a sudden people started to say medicine medicine medicine what if this stuff is a medicine well then we should consider using it and experimenting on figuring out how to use it what if here's my question to you guys what if that process

Is can also be applied that medical process can be applied to the transition what if we find out that people who make that transition have a certain perspective and you know we can get really particular with the scientific examining we'll give these people all kinds all kinds of brain scans and we'll figure out what parts of their brains they're activating and we'll follow them up so that we know and and in so many years they're not developing they're not developing Alzheimer's at the same rate you know

And and what's it do for so this whole thing this whole transition is a necessary pain right entering that transition I've never talked to somebody who's been in the transition or having gone through it that it wasn't anything but stressful painful difficult to um to deal with so when somebody has entered that death and is brought back out as that new being yeah what if we find out that my question to you guys what if we find out that making the transition I don't know let's just do something extreme say

Cancer rates drop through the floor you want to make sure that you're not going to get that inherited cancer you know like since you have a you have a genetic propensity for liver cancer if if you're going to get that liver cancer well um if you go through the transition and we can do that in a series of steps with the you know xp85 synthesized from the Viper Venom that collected from North Africa we can we can reduce your chances of getting cancer this familial problem cancer

Alzheimer's whatever we can reduce that significantly we can increase your lifespan by 40 years making this transition what what are we you know what does the world look like then well we then step back and say oh crap maybe we shouldn't be discriminating against these people who have made the transition already right I don't know I just keep thinking about this idea of how do we end things like racism right when people travel and they experience the other people when you when you when you interact and you're

Able to understand another perspective that's when you recognize it as oh it's not all that different than my own and imagine if a lot of these people are going through these gender transitions that which is alien the opposite sex all of a sudden is no longer alien you're able to see yourself from that perspective and if you talk to people so much of our current issues is this inability for the genders to communicate you know and for people highlighting the differences rather than focusing on the similarities

I mean I don't think we can really say we understand human nature or Consciousness if we can't understand how this transition process works because it's Central to brain function and our endocrine system and and it seems like a lot of this really is dealing with accessing Lost faculties In The Reptilian Brain and in other parts of the brain uh which

We haven't cultivated through neuroplastics we haven't grown those parts of our brain because we haven't been exercising it properly they've been atrophying uh in ignorance because that knowledge was wiped out and so uh you know I'm not going to pretend to have the definite answer to neurology and the hard problem of Consciousness or whatever but it's it seems like the hemispheres weren't of the brain used to work together better they were more interconnected and now we've fallen into Duality and these false assumptions were operating on false premises created by the abrahamic

Religion and it's sending us into uh all kinds of straw man arguments and and just wasted time an argument you know and conflict endless conflict because we think there's only one right way and one everything else is wrong or that there's a moral thing going on we're trying to understand it in moral terms rather than understand nature in its own terms which is beyond human morality so we can't

So we've got this whole mixed up assumption that nature has to conform to our morality or Christian morality it's not even ours no that's that's such a good point Rich because right it's at the essence is this selfishness the self-centeredness which imagines The Human Experience is Paramount and as justification justification for every action right everything we do as a species is about us and for us and if you read like the abrahamic religions this is Paramount but you don't see this in these nature religions and these primitive religions

In the Greek Mysteries it's not there instead you have that experience of pan right you have that all and to get to that Panic you have to destroy yourself in the experience of everything you have to understand that you were just a part of the process you know yeah they didn't just separate men and women and and and ignore trans people they separated Humanity from nature and then we became psychotic and we lost and then we started to think there's something called the Supernatural and the natural

And that we can object you know we can separate ourselves from nature and then study it objectively that way he's like no there's there's inherent uh cognitive bias and and right like I just we own that until we until we re you know

Except that we're not objective and infallible and inherently rational or or even primarily rational probably uh then we're never gonna have any we're never going to uh achieve our potential for rationality until we operate on you know until we come to gross with that that the limits of human nature or what that we are natural and and all of these things so you're just going to create all kinds of straw man arguments trying to ignore the fact that that humans are part of nature and that uh hey we all

Genetically descended from fungus whoops and no but I think you highlight something that's huge that's huge here because like him been doing a lot of thing about AI like we were talking earlier about using Ai and AI is kind of having this moment and I feel like it's this completely irrational conversation most of it because people are imagining this technology as artificial as something that exists outside of ourselves is not a product of us as difference and I'm a you know and we keep thinking like oh

They're gonna rise up and destroy us to me the scene the screams of that Kronos moment are we not panicking and going to consume children are children just not going to freak out and replace us like we're going to fulfill our own [\\h__\\h] prophecy if we think like that we need to remake ourselves into something new combine these things right that's such a great Point yeah I know here too here here I agree great point we're scared of these AI robots because we think they're going to act like us

It's like well maybe we should have worked on ourselves before we made them I don't know

We're also relying on the AI to solve our problems so at the same time we read this literature about robots and the problem is always we enslave them and we want them to do every [\\h__\\h] thing for us we don't want to take care of ourselves at all and then of course they freak out and don't want to do it so why do we keep inventing these scenarios like it just seems ridiculous right or why why aren't we researching why aren't we researching how to get

Along better instead or learn how to share you know instead of you know then we can once we learn how to get long then we can make some robots without a problem Maybe I don't know just a thought if the AIS that they make are hard to deal with and tell you the world is going to destroy itself why don't we see the reflection in that why don't we uh use it in a positive way I totally Gunk you you have I mean you have a pathway to some kind

Of Nobel Prize there yeah I mean this doesn't work it's that projection again we think the robots are separate from us even though we intuitively know they're a reflection of us or we're trying to make them but you know so there's this cognitive dis it's like this Descartes really [\\h__\\h] with people's minds and uh created this this Insanity that we're separate from our actions or or effects on nature and and nature itself so

I have to do this kind of denial and Shadow projection thing that's rooted in the abrahamic religions and we're trying to overcome evil by but it we don't realize the evil is within us so we can't we never actually deal with it but it's also like someone like Dakar it's so stupid it's so self-centered right like he imagined I think therefore I am okay well this is clearly a person who's existed in [\\h__\\h] privilege his entire life has never had to suffer you talk to any

Person who was born a slave they are not going to have that I think therefore I am does not make sense their whole life is dictated by the other by that relationship of Oppression you know like it's a tautology yeah I mean your thoughts are the ones that are thinking that you are amp you know so it's like you're just relying on on The Thinker to tell you what thoughts are and you're ignoring all the rest of Consciousness so it requires you to deny everything outside of yourself like how

Insane is that with with Chris and especially after Newton like we get this idea that to be scientific we have to uh ignore emotions and repress emotions but that's not how the Greek uh rationalists really argued it they had this idea of overcoming passions or two most but that was more like overcoming bias and uh balance it's all about balance yeah and that finding Harmony and so it wasn't about repress you still needed those or else what's the point if if you have no emotions then what good is logic

Going to do it's not going to make you happy because happiness is an emotion so once you're destroying the very purpose of logic which is to make you happy in order to be logical so this is what this is the mind [\\h__\\h] of the abrahamic religions and they get you going in this circular logic and because you have to follow the script and you have to believe the logic of the Bible or else you're going to go to hell so repress your emotions and just go into the denial and and it's a and just fear God and and try

Your best to fear God and and have faith and that's all that the obedient that's all that matters so and you know what what I noticed the ultimate Evil that's what their message is right what I always notice though is the all like Chris Christianity and the abrahamic religions are part of this but the real evil at the heart of all of this is the separation it's that thing that isolates us it's that thinking that makes our experience the only experience right it's like you were saying it's that Duality US versus them that's when

Everything starts to erode and fall apart you know and that's really a product of this kind of modern abrahamic and then scientific thinking which is and it's it blows my mind because if you really use your true rational function then you can recognize that this selfishness is is foolish and that something like extreme atheism is as much as a religion or an ideology as anything else and it's so far is a lie you know it's just coloring a projection

Makes me wonder if there's some way to you're saying Snappy you actually want to stand against the tide then and bring bring that balance back and logically the only way to do it is to bring back that source that has made that transition or that source that is able to stand on either sides of of masculine feminine right the whole to be the whole I guess right that's what Plato would say it's the whole of the creation I wonder if um I wonder if how do you translate that into a practical movement besides you

Know founding of creating a foundation that's a think tank or something how do you bring that into society that rebalancing like if you had complete control and or all the resources you need how would you do that I would be doing a mystery type ceremony using in theogens because that's kind of what did it for me you know you have I anyone can do this I mean do this and be safe about it but go and experiments with psilocybin mushrooms you will experience the all you will go through that panic

And have yourself ripped apart it's it's like just about everyone you talk to who has a hero's journey has done this this is why someone like McKenna makes such a big deal of it and it's not just about the mushrooms we can we can do we need to rekindle an entire whole new mystery that where we go through these death experiences where we're we're letting go of those old aspects of ourselves and recreating ourself we need to see ourselves in this constant state of change we need to embrace change and embrace death right we have a society

That's so afraid of death how can we transform if we can't Embrace death yeah I hear you because I'm one right I'm one of those so why don't we achieve that can we ask can we just to get things rolling because you know it'll take us a long time to develop it you know they didn't come up with the Mysteries overnight and the whole process was from hundreds if not thousands of years of development so how do we accelerate that development can we get like one of those chat

Artificial intelligences somehow and just say hey this is the mystery this is what it does you know key in some kind of keywords now how do you bring this about now what's the maybe we can use the artificial intelligence for that well I think a big important thing that I want to highlight here that isn't as sort of a kind of like expanding upon the Mysteries is what are the Mysteries really trying to do they're trying to heal the self they're trying to heal that Duality and bring us back to fannies and then back to the cosmic

Wound womb right they're trying to heal that violent separation you know so we need to approach it from the same kind of a healing perspective and incorporate this into everything you know we need to be healing each other and see each other as individuals who need to be made whole again we need to be emphasizing mental health and community and working on those grounds on an individual level you know yeah that just unified a bunch of a bunch of Evangelical sphincters just tightened up right because that's the plan that that's how

We become unified against because you know you know the evangelicals are not going to stand for that the Orthodox Jews are not going to stand for that right this is this is things that are you know this is The Whispers of Satan and those Satanic Verses you know what I mean we can't we're we're complete we're we're giving them what they want we're giving them what they want is that necessarily a bad thing or should we push this thing forward and just say Okay Full Speed Ahead well there is some

Concern we have to have a very nuanced approach when we're doing this because one of the things I think about is when we go to these ideas of returning back to Oneness and of healing and of Peace we have to be careful not to remove that element of danger of the violence of the death because it's that saturnian force that pushes us forward and keeps us evolving if we remove that Force which that causes that Evolution then we're doomed to failure like one thing that I'm nervous about but also just amazed

By is something like transhumanism because what if we do conquer Sex and Death will we survive as a species you know like would Humanity even continue to to struggle without those things forcing us you know right I mean that people are concerned about the AI taking over well maybe all it'll do is invent VR Tech and then we'll just live in that fantasy world and it can have its way with the Earth as it wants because we're all busy you know in VR and it just has to change

Our IV bags and bed pens and we're happy you know it doesn't even need to kill it or to deal with us we're we did it to ourselves I was reading this one philosopher who was talking about what we fundamentally need to do is reduce everything down to super super small and Shrink everyone down so that we can extend time infinitely and live in these small created paradises I'm like that's insane what if we went through the Christian Church what if we said hey we're purists and we want to bring back

That initial mystery and it just turns out Jesus was involved with some drugs and some practices that we know are meant to bring out this kind of morph and it's going to involve certain practices Transformations and pretty soon we'll have a whole stadium we'll have 5 000 people uh in the orchestra and they will cut

Off their testicles and begin the transition that we will show you is the true Christian mystery the true operation of the mystery the reason that Paul was immune to Viper Venom because the thorn was in his flesh remember how he says that there's a thorn in my flesh right look at the thorn that's in the myth Ray mystery it's there it's a combo of drugs it's two drugs put together into one injection not an injection like you think right they weren't using syringes but they were getting it

Injected into the bloodstream via you know cuts and putting it in your eyes and whatnot so he's exposed to that what about Paul and his transition what does he say about women don't get married unless you can't contain unless basically you're such a friggin pervert this you can't contain yourself then get married right as Paul excuse me Paul are you talking from the level of that of that transition are you talking do you have some kind of knowledge of this where's Helen Paul why are you so upset about John

And what John did in his baptism right oh God love it if can we go through the Christians that way just say hey we're going to start the most pure form of Christianity that's been on the planet since the foundation since Jesus himself

Was performing the right we're gonna reproduce that right okay you think maybe we could do it that way I think you know what you may be on to something and you know it's funny because you brought you you introduced me to Brian murescue's work and when I first read it I was kind of like snobby about it because he's very Catholic and he's it's a very pop writing of of what we're talking about here but at the same time this guy is appealing to the mainstream

Catholic audience the single largest religious denomination in the world and he's making them recognize that at the heart of their religious rights is an in theogenic drug experience you know like that is valuable

Oh you're uh muted Ammon yeah and I'll just say one thing that's book three yeah books I can't say anything about it specifically but just wait until book three right we've got to bring these direct associations back we have to we're the museum man I'm sorry it's just everybody can feel the burden you know you were talking about that memory and bring that memory back right that's our Museum baby let's bring it back and show everyone with that original right we could be the only genuine Christians on the planet we could we could start you

Know the cult as if uh in a way that would cause people to see it and say oh my God that's what yes come come right learn learn what the mystery is about right you you sit in your church and you can do the symbols or you can come and see what the original people were doing and how different it is we but we'd have to start some Agape feasts and you know we can't we can't I'm just trying to picture these little old ladies going

Into these catacombs that are hot boxed and no lights are on and everyone's having orgies foreign

Orgies back to the church right then we know we we're successful yeah we've come full circle but no but you do raise a good point is that we're having this Renaissance moment and it's important we recognize how huge this is a Catholic person is bringing forward the mysteries in the mainstream press in what world do you think that that would happen right 20 20 years ago you you you couldn't even get your book published your your your doctoral advisors are telling you the Romans don't even do

Drugs 20 years prior to that they're they're calling Dr Rock a crazy person you know forward look how far we've come and you know there's it's no coincidence that it's right in line with the spreading of information right I mean evangelicals

Hear his voice the devil babies right with the spread of knowledge that is when lady Babylon returns that Tower is made complete and when we all can enter that Tower regardless of what's coming out of our mouth we can all enter that Tower that's when the mystery will be restored when the abomination of that edemosis that place

That Wilderness right which is that chemical communion that it's a very very real thing this is not people this is not Faith we're not sitting around right Romans don't care about faith faith does nothing for them when they are involved in a religion they want to see the visions that they need to see they want to enter that world they want to be able to manipulate at a distance right it's not it's no dancing right we're not just going to ice cream socials and we're not

Just hearing this the same message repeated over and over and over again can you be born again yeah you can there's no Pagan in the room it's not gonna not gonna agree to that right but the point is are you you Christians are you being born again I feel born again I've dedicated my life to Christ no no no no that's not what I'm asking are you born again like they said born again right have you entered into death and into Resurrection you say yes by my

Faith that's not how it worked right you gotta die and be woken up you gotta go to the underworld and meet you know and and talk to these people right like that's what they're doing in those mystery rights yeah it seems to me that oh you're uh you did there Ammon so it seems to me that uh in order to bring about this healing we have to celebrate life if you don't have a love of life it's harder for you to heal uh psychosomatically and then just

Inject you know you don't have a will for life then you're not gonna heal so well and the abrahamic religions have systematically destroyed the love of life and they did this as they demonized Eve the mother of or zoa for the gnostics the gnostics seemed to have preserved a lot of this original mystery Christianity

Uh I'm not I can't say for sure how what the true history of it all is but uh they certainly preserved a lot of the mystery traditions in this Weird Hybrids that they made and so we have to restore zoa and she is the goddess she is ashirah she is Aphrodite

And uh it's it's all part of the same process as recreating the universal language before the confusion of tongues that is beautifully said beautifully said yeah this is how we celebrate life through the con through the universal language that we have to reconstruct and that will provide the context for the images to provide animesis

For the initiates and as we get so let's get started shall we I mean yeah I mean isn't that amazing Gunk just laid out the cosmos in front of if you were paying attention like in your brain to the images that he was creating and the stream I should say the stream that he's great he just laid out everything and had a call to for people to pick up the sword and to say yeah we will we will go forward right we are not we are

Not going backwards towards total collapse right we were not I don't know how anybody can uh when you take away that mother Gunk when you take away that mother that aphrodite that holy mother that Queen I think that's why you get those religions those modest religions because you've you've what is it it's something special about that mother right imagine a person who is able to enter the state of mother right you could just take the worst misogynistic man on the planet from you could pull him right out of 1955.

Yeah and you could put him you give him the right chemicals and go through the right process you can turn him into a mother imagine how his perspective would change he might stop being a dick you know

We sure hope so no but you you raised so many good points and I just want us to start winding down here but like what we're getting at is that there's listen to what Rhett was just saying through this process of understanding each other of learning our cultural myths and our shared arts and our shared experience we can find these images that connect us that truly speak to our our human experience and are at the fundamental root that primordial language and through learning these things that connect us we're able to bring about that healing you know so

When people tell you about this cultural appropriation or whatever or they're getting mad like that's all horseshit we need to be learning and experiencing each other and embracing each other you know right well that appropriation is a problem of capitalism and commodification but yeah we it's on top of the Tower of Babel that heaven and earth meet where the Priestess and the King have their ritual as the god and goddess for the fertility of the land and that's why

The abrahamic religion hates it because they want everybody to die and that's only in death that anything matters so they demonize life and uh so you know read the paraphrase of Shem you'll see that the Towers also the Ark of Noah and also ejaculates the light back into the heavens

We need to know that like if you look at the Greek art right like even we've misunderstood everything I feel like but like tragedy is about affirming life uh comedy is about affirming life right the Greeks are tooking it they're looking at what's hard and absurd about life and they're seeing it as a challenge to overcome and they're reaffirming that through experiencing it as a community right how do we deal with pain and suffering we create art through which we can experience it and heal it together

What is our worst most horrible pain let's put it on display what is the most ridiculous thing that could possibly happen to us let's examine it rub our nose is in it so that we can understand it and overcome it so that if it does happen we don't cower and run you know and that process that's so beautiful Snappy and that process is a purgation that's the whole purpose of the thing theater is to bring that religious catharsis to bring that purgation love it right yeah as Aphrodite explains in the Hermetic text core Cosmos

She provides us with these worldly desires so that we can experience them and yeah they won't be the ultimate Enlightenment or ultimately satisfying they will get us into trouble sometimes but through that trouble we gain wisdom and knowledge and and we eventually progress that text lays out the whole scheme of progress and invention you know

Necessity and enki is literally the mother of the goddess of invention that's where that expression comes from so and it's all being generated by the desires of Aphrodite or that's the motivating force behind it all and it's also our our Mercy in this world amen amen amen you guys have created a a satanic Cathedral right this is a place for the muses oh my god do you hear I mean seriously this is gorgeous guys this is this is thank you so much for having me I know

We're wrapping up so thank you for having me and just to hear just to hear the I mean it's wisdom I it's all I can it's the only way I can say it what what you guys have done today is I'll say that with all humility before Nemesis herself it was wisdom I heard wisdom I'm gonna go off and jump around and be like look look they're bringing you back you know they're bringing back the wisdom I love it guys thank you for having me well

Thank you so much Ammon I mean uh we've both learned so much from you it's a team effort for sure so uh and that's that's why it's most true right because it's not just some Prophet on the mountain until we're figuring it out as a group and it's a ongoing dialogue in the universal language it's a communication that heals and that's what this fundamentally is about it's about that healing process of uniting us back to this you know you need a unified whole and that's what we're engaged in here with these Mysteries with everything so thank you guys for joining

Us it's been a wonderful afternoon um please go to ladybabylon And subscribe to Ammon he does regulars live streams every Wednesday and every Friday and please subscribe to us here at drawing down the stars this kind of content is something that the algorithm does not support so please engage with the videos comment like subscribe and share and we'll see you all next week and Neil will join us then so uh thank you guys and have a wonderful evening peace and love now Satan hail Satan